Potential non-starter issues for attending MegaDO

Discussion in 'SMD4 (Star MegaDO #4)' started by David, Jan 1, 2012.  |  Print Topic

  1. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    EDIT: Please note I did not post this post originally as its own topic, however the replies were being OT for the core thread. I'm not looking to debate the issue here, however now that we do have this thread, I hope any others who have true fundamental issues / or very serious concerns with ANY of the proposed countries for ANY nature of reason have the courage to speak up if the want to. Simply to enable others to be aware that people have such concerns as they might not have factored it into their thinking.

    Original post:

    Have voted for Nordic, which has a great deal of appeal to me anyway.

    Asian Dawn is a comple non-starter due to 'ethical traveller' human rights issues.
     
    snap likes this.
  2. adl73x
    Original Member

    adl73x Gold Member

    Messages:
    10,012
    Likes Received:
    26,322
    Status Points:
    16,520
    Quite strong polemics I see against the current front running choice.

    Discounting all those based around 'a long way from the US' which seem astoundingly parochial for an international community with a focus on travel, the tarnishing Asia as somehow 'unethical', or more unethical than other choices is plumbing new depths of bizarre.

    I hope we will all get together for SMD4 in some place where we are not only open to new experiences, but rushing headlong into the joy of the occasion!
     
    gene134, Pat89339, jetsetr and 8 others like this.
  3. Lufthansa Flyer
    Original Member

    Lufthansa Flyer Gold Member

    Messages:
    23,970
    Likes Received:
    43,968
    Status Points:
    19,995
    100% agree.

    I think we'll find imperfection with humanity no matter where the charter touches down.....I think it was extremely naive and unfair to label Asia as a whole re: issues with human rights. Fortunately this trip is quite optional and those who do not like the menu need not order from it. Show me a country and I'll show you its problems. Having just come back from a short trip to Asia, I CANNOT wait to return.
     
    gene134, Pat89339, jetsetr and 7 others like this.
  4. canucklehead
    Original Member

    canucklehead Gold Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    22,059
    Status Points:
    11,070
    I am intrigued by the human rights issues you refer to. We all have opinions and Milepoint does pride itself on being an open and welcome community, so hopefully we can discuss this civilly or move on from this point without devolving the thread.

    Cheers!
     
  5. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    I mentioned it in passing purely because it is factually true for me, that is all. If Asian Dawn is chosen it is certain I will not be going, that is true. I mentioned it only because I mentioned the two reasons why I chose Nordic (one is it is my true prefernece, the other is the human rights angle excluding Asian Dawn).

    I'm not going to make a huge deal about it, but since you ask, I'll briefly explain my position in reply.

    Firstly I agree with one of the other posters who said (essentially) 'give me any country and I'll give problems with it'. That is quite true, there are many many countries (including thouse I am happy to visit, do visit regularly and/or live in) where I have issues with prevailing laws and/or government policy.

    However, personally, I do not visit countries that engage in human rights abuses.

    Asian Dawn involves SIN (Singapore) which still engages in corporal punishment, in particular brutal caning: http://corpun.com/sgjur1.htm
    It also still has the death penalty.
    Or it will involve BKK, Thailand - again the death penalty
    ICN - South Korea, again the death penalty still exists, although I hasn't been used for some time. Also, issues with the propper action being taken to stop corporal punishment in schools.
    NRT - Japan Again, still has death penalty, and has used it as recently as 2010.

    [Coupled with this, is questions about the justice systems, truely excessive sentencing is also, IMO, a human rights abuse.]

    Now, I have good friends in all of these countries, I would very much like to visit all the countries anyway (and other where a similar situation exisits). However, personally I do not set foot in such places. I travel the world quite happily without doing so.

    Many of you might have different views about the topics in question (captial and corporal punihsment), you might also very easily disagree with them but be happy to set foot in countries where this is prevailing. However, personally, I am not.

    Cheers!
     
    snap, Sean Colahan and iolaire like this.
  6. canucklehead
    Original Member

    canucklehead Gold Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    22,059
    Status Points:
    11,070
    Thank you for providing an answer and I do appreciate that you did post a response. I am sure many will agree to disagree and we should leave at that!
     
  7. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    Indeed, I'm not looking to start a debate or discussion on it, certainly not here on milepoint.

    MP should be built around the common interest(s) that bring us here. But, this was a topic that did involve a dimension of specifics (would you sign up to X), and I personally mentioned my own position in passing regarding these specifcs, purely to give my position (not to give the expanded reply). I know personlly there are others who hold similar views to my own, but I also know there are certainly thouse that don't.

    It is a pitty we can have all of them! [How about an opt-in-opt-out RTW do?]
     
    HaveMilesWillTravel likes this.
  8. ParanoiaTX
    Original Member

    ParanoiaTX Gold Member

    Messages:
    5,113
    Likes Received:
    10,302
    Status Points:
    11,070
    Appreciate the candid answer. I'm sure there were several here, including myself, wondering what you meant exactly. I take you are not based in the US (or travel through it) then (couldn't tell from your profile), since that would break your rule. I can see how this could be your first chance in a while (since SMD1) to participate in a MegaDO. :)
     
    jetsetr and wijomas like this.
  9. haakonks

    haakonks Silver Member

    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    195
    Status Points:
    420
    So you are not going to the US either then?
     
    FriendlySkies likes this.
  10. Mr. Max

    Mr. Max Silver Member

    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    58
    Status Points:
    240
    Given that the good old USA executed 43 people in 2011, it might be best to have any North American positioning flight from nice, friendly, we don't kill anyone, Canada. ;-) As an added bonus, we're also very polite.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2236
     
  11. wijomas
    Original Member

    wijomas Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    7,508
    Status Points:
    6,470
    Lol, come on guys.... just let it pass. David gave his reasons and he is entitled to his own opinions, as is everyone else. Whether you agree with them or not, this is not the place to discuss.
     
  12. NYCAdventurer

    NYCAdventurer Gold Member

    Messages:
    11,382
    Likes Received:
    5,329
    Status Points:
    10,070
    Wouldn't stop me from going but just to throw it out there, I do not approve of Japans whaling practices!
     
  13. TAHKUCT
    Original Member

    TAHKUCT Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,766
    Likes Received:
    7,236
    Status Points:
    5,070
    or earthquakes :D
     
    Richard Chen and Pat89339 like this.
  14. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    Please note: This was not created as a separate thread by me. However my post triggered responces which were going OT, hence the posts have been moved out.

    It really was not my intention to start a debate here on this topic. I just mentioned it in passing.
    As such, I hadn't really replied to any of replies - as I didn't want to drag it off topic.

    Now that we are in a separate thread, some quick replies:

    @adl74x and @747 I hope you will note that I did NOT 'tarnish' asia as a whole as being unethical, etc. I simply said that the itin labelled as 'Asian Dawn' was out of the question for me for human rights issues. That statement was true for the three options underdiscussion. It also has nothing to do with not being open to new experiences.

    @haakonks: Yes, sadly for me I do not visit the US currently.

    @NYCadventurer: Like you I disagree with Japan whaling activities, and thouse of other countries (some of which I visit), however I know this is not stopping me setting foot on their soil. For others it might stop them. As I said above, plenty of things I disagree with in lots of countrties, including thouse I live in. But it is a question of personal conscience, I don't set foot in places with human rights abuses.

    @MrMax: Yes, would love it if thouse MegaDO trips that need to have a TATL starting point were from Canada. America is just as lovely a place as Canada, but again, my own personal conscience is clear in Canada, but it would not be in USA.

    This takes us on to the post by paranoiatx, who posts: "I can see how this could be your first chance in a while (since SMD1) to participate in a MegaDO".
    Indeed. I can tell you that I know personally of others who have a similar POV to my own, hence this is actually one of the reasons why many would be keen to be able to do the Europe based bits of the OW megado, etc without the US TATL being mandatory - it is not just the wackyness of flying the US only to fly back (as we all know, that is NOT wacky, although it may seem it to others!)

    Anyway, as I said, it was not my intention to go off topic, nor to start a debate on this point.

    Plenty will have utterly different views from my own, both about the topics under discussion and/or whether they are (for them personally) show stopping.

    However, now that we do have this thread, I hope any others who have ANY fundamental issues that actually cause them show stopping problems (or severe unease) with ANY of the options or destinations under consideration have the courage to speak up here if they want to.
    - Not least because there will be many unaware of such concerns/problems.

    They don't have to agree with them, but it doesn't hurt for people know what may be affecting the 'buy in' of others to certain proposals.
     
    jetsetr and TAHKUCT like this.
  15. LarryInNYC

    LarryInNYC Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    2,797
    Status Points:
    1,445
    I am willing to wager, without knowing where you're from, that this statement is not true.
     
    HansGolden and FriendlySkies like this.
  16. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    Really, why?

    [Obviously, it could be down to what one considers a human rights abuse, and also whether one is talking about what is legally permitted and/or what happens in practice. Also whether one is talking about fundamentals, or what else.]

    But by any realistic measure, I'll happy take you up on your bet!
     
  17. mattsteg
    Original Member

    mattsteg Gold Member

    Messages:
    3,278
    Likes Received:
    5,543
    Status Points:
    4,170
    I suppose you may as well list out where you've been, in that case.
     
  18. David
    Original Member

    David Silver Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    119
    Status Points:
    420
    I'm not looking to debate the issue here. I've explained, I believe, what my profound criteria are (right to life, freedom from torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, innocence until proven guilty, etc).

    I've confirmed that I do not visit the US because of this, that combined wither other things I have mentioned, gives you an idea of where I visit and where I do not visit.

    Different people will have different interpretations and standards in this area, and will make different assessments of what are fundamental human rights and to what level different countries are in compliance with them.

    I believe that the criteria I mention (by way of example above) can be considered fundamental human rights. I'm not claming that is exhaustitive. I would argue that the countries I have visited are not engaging in fundamental human rights abuses, but I argue that the US, and the others I mention are.

    If anyone has any particular country they think I might have visited which they believe do engage in fundamental human rights abuses, they are welcome (if they wish) to post it on thread or PM me, and I will happily tell them if I have visited it and/or whether I would.

    But, I'm not going to post my entire travel history here.
     
    From NYC likes this.
  19. jetsetr
    Original Member

    jetsetr Gold Member

    Messages:
    4,109
    Likes Received:
    8,704
    Status Points:
    7,270
    I appreciate that MP is a community where we can have such open, respectful disagreements, without having an overbearing moderator squash debate and discussion.

    I applaud the original poster for having the courage to state a viewpoint that at first glance may have seemed quite contrary to the "flow" of the original thread in which it was posted.

    I personally do not share the qualms of traveling in (or living in) such countries where the practices may be interpreted (to varying degrees) as violating human rights, even though I may certainly (but not necessarily) disagree with such practices.

    But to the extent that another's personal politics and viewpoints do not infringe upon my right to believe what I wish, and to travel where I want to travel, then more power to that other person. Dissent and disagreement is the heart of democracy, may it live long and proud!
     
  20. canucklehead
    Original Member

    canucklehead Gold Member

    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    22,059
    Status Points:
    11,070
    Hey Milepointers

    I think we should leave it at that. David has provided his points and although some may not agree, we should respect that he is making a personal decision. He has been candid in his thoughts and I do not feel he needs to justify his choices or countries visited any further.

    Of course, I am sure others will disagree with me (and I am okay with that! :)). Perhaps they can continue this on via conversations as David has mentioned.
     
  21. JetAway

    JetAway Silver Member

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    226
    Status Points:
    395
    I think it would be impossible to find 100% agreement on any MegaDo venue, given the variety of views and backgrounds of the participants. Which is one of the reasons the organizers are having a vote. And depending on the locations chosen, some people won't be able to go. But many will.
     
  22. Lufthansa Flyer
    Original Member

    Lufthansa Flyer Gold Member

    Messages:
    23,970
    Likes Received:
    43,968
    Status Points:
    19,995
    that rules out ohio......
     
  23. Lufthansa Flyer
    Original Member

    Lufthansa Flyer Gold Member

    Messages:
    23,970
    Likes Received:
    43,968
    Status Points:
    19,995
    as long as there are plenty of friends, food and drink, it doesnt matter where the DO goes.....oh yeah, and miles.....silly me.:oops:
     
  24. BEG2IAH

    BEG2IAH Silver Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    63
    Status Points:
    195
    Hey guys... I like all three options, but I have a big concern with September being the month of choice. September 15 is tax return filing deadline and people who work in finance may have no way of attending. I could last year because I quit my previous job. :) Asian option is awesome, but I would need to get 4 visas, but that's ok. My bigger concern is anything prior to Sept. 15.

    See you around...

    BEG2IAH
     
    FriendlySkies and From NYC like this.
  25. TAHKUCT
    Original Member

    TAHKUCT Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,766
    Likes Received:
    7,236
    Status Points:
    5,070
    But Ohio does not have whales, so there is no problem with that :D
     
    Lufthansa Flyer likes this.

Share This Page