OT: Terror in Norway

Discussion in 'SAS | EuroBonus' started by Robbiedeluxe, Jul 22, 2011.  |  Print Topic

  1. Robbiedeluxe
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  2. mht_flyer
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    Very sad story, I was just in Oslo a few months ago and it is a wonderful city.

    I actually will need to most likely make two more trips there this year.

    How far away from the Radisson Blu Scandinavia was this? This is where my company usually stays when in Oslo.
     
  3. mht_flyer
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  4. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    Local news in the bay area showed what looked like footage from a helicopter flying over the island that was, to put it mildly, very disturbing.
     
  5. Someone
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    About 1km

    Seems like the main story now is from Utøya were that asshole shot over 80 persons
     
  6. LETTERBOY
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    The SOB who did this has a special place in hell waiting for him. :mad:
     
  7. Bluto
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    The blast was about 1km east of the Radisson. I was in Oslo at the Grand Hotel last month. It's about 500m from there.
     
  8. nime01
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    Police report they have reason to believe this is the actions of a lone gunman/bomber.
     
  9. Merlin
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    [​IMG]
    Using Google Earth, I've made 3D-map showing where bomb went off. Distance from epicentre to:
    - Radisson Plaze 600 m
    - Stortinget (parliament building) 500 m

    The island Utøya (where now 84 dead have been found) is situated 32 km (as the crow flies) to the west northwest of Oslo city centre.
     
  10. Robbiedeluxe
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    This is just unreal. I had lunch 400 meters away, but decided to go home earlier.
    What happened at the youth camp is just absurd. I'm lost for words.
     
  11. tommy777
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    A really sad day for a small country like Norway. My brother was 150 yards away, around the corner from where the bomb went of, but is OK.

    It will be interesting to see how the Norwegian judicial system will handle this guy. The maximum jail time for murder is 21 years, but under special circumstances, he can be held inevitably. But at the end of the day, he won't do more than 20 years. That's just absurd.
     
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  12. Gargoyle
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    perhaps they can have separate trials, one for the bombing, one for shootings, two 20 year sentences to run sequentially? Or separate trials for each murder, give him 1600 years.

    The law needs to serve as deterrent, punishment, and to keep the person out of circulation so he can't do it again. For a psychopath or a fanatic, deterrent and punishment don't work, all you can do is prevent a repeat by the same person.
     
  13. Merlin
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    Gargoyle, there two types of sentences in Norway - the normal jail sentece of maximum 21 years and there is the so called "forvaring" that may lead to true life long detension in secure institution.
    Norwegian wikipedia page explaining "forvaring": http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring
    English translation of the page: http://translate.google.com/transla...l=en&u=http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring

    People that have been sentenced to "forvaring" have usually done hideous crime, and this year we have had two high profiled cases that ended in "forvaring" - a senior MD at Hamar hospital that messed with minors and "Alvdal-saken".
     
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  14. rwoman
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    Absolutely insane!! My thoughts and prayers go out to those affected. My team chief at work is Norwegian and he and his family were already headed home to southern Norway today. He said the attacker's timing was "good" because many people were out of the city yesterday and headed home or elsewhere for summer vacations.

    robin
     
  15. nime01
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    Hmm.. turns out the daughter of our insurance agent was shot in the back during the rampage. She was lucky to survive.
     
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  16. Someone
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    He will probably get "forvaring" and I wouldn't almost expect that he actually will spend the rest of his life in jail, although he may not die of natural causes.....there are quite a few deaths in Norwegian prisons each year, and they don't make the medie to put it that way........ .....and most likely, he will be threated below a pedophile in the internal jail "ranking" system
     
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  17. GUWonder
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    An awful tragedy as a result of yet another terrorist whacko.

    I suspect that somehow or another he will remain in custody for the rest of his life, even as murderers rather routinely get out in 20 years or even a ridiculously small fraction of that in Norway. It's to be seen how and how long this terrorist lives in custody in a country where the majority of its rather small population may not even be more than 2-3 degrees of separation from someone killed by him.
     
  18. tsastor
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    I'm not very religious so I don't know if this person will have a special place in hell or not. All I hope for is that society will continue to try to minimize the occurences of these kinds of incidents. This may be by smart preventive police work, gun control and comprehensive mental care programs for example. What is of course troubling is that Norway is quite advanced in these respects. But that is probably precisely why this is the first incident of its kind in Norway.
     
  19. LETTERBOY
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    Certain parts of the US have VERY strict gun control laws, and that doesn't seem to have much of an impact.

    Regarding this specific occurrance, I'm not sure gun control would have done much to stop it. If someone's that determined to hurt people, they're going to find a way to do it.
     
  20. tsastor
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    All positive measures should be taken to prevent these kind of incidents from happening. I don't know why gun control should be left out. Nothing can be done to prevent such issues entirely, all you can do is to reduce the likelyhood of their success and frequency. In a homogenous country like Norway, different kinds of control measures have a higher likelyhood of succeeding than in e.g. the U.S. Anyway I only mentioned some measure as examples. What I'd also like to see, for instance, is lower public acceptance of violence portrayed in entertainment and the media as included in a normal way of life.
     
  21. GUWonder
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    I have little doubt that if he didn't get his gun licenses approved that he could have just done a few more massive vehicle bombs. This international terrorist had the farm for the cover to prepare for the vehicle bomb he did and could have used it for even more.

    Illegal guns are available for purchase in Oslo, and I'm not sure how further gun control laws in Norway would necessarily change a thing when it would fail to eliminate illegal guns already present around Norway. His bullet and silencer purchases are rather more interesting line of investigation than his gun acquisition/possession under cover of being in compliance with the law.

    It has been reported in the print press that the Norwegian Crown Princess's stepbrother was killed in the attacks on the island. He was acting as a security guard there. He may have been an off-duty police officer, but like most of my own acquaintances in some Scandinvaian security services, carrying a weapon off-duty is anything but routine. I doubt it would be allowed if acting as an off-duty security guard for most such persons. Even if such a person had a gun (and I don't know if he did or not), I doubt it would have made any difference.

    These attacks in Norway are not the product of legal gun ownership. They are the product of the growing neo-political correctness (online and offline, domestically and internationally) that accepts or -- worse yet -- welcomes hatred directed at certain ethnic/religious minority communities as a whole and those who are no fans of such hatred directed at ethnic/religious minority communities as a whole. Anders Behring Breivik was fed (locally but more so internationally) on hatred directed at muslims, and he was hoping to feed hatred of the same even more internationally with these acts of international terrorism that he considered horrible but "necessary".

    The following is no great consolation but it may turn out a small mercy for some that the death toll from the shooting has been revised substantially downward to 68. Unfortunately the bomb victim death count has risen to 8.
     
  22. tsastor
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    He could have and the that should have been stopped too, as well as other methods as long as different options existed. As I said, all possible positive preventive methods should be evaluated, considered and eventually used.
    Of course not and I will come to that next. I would personally be glad to ban all gun ownership of private persons but I know that is not realistic in a country that likes hunting a lot. I would push for banning of automatic and semi-automatic weapons, handguns and dum-dum bullets in addition to the items that you mentioned.
    I disagree. Breivik is just a sick person who acted like he was playing some very popular splatter game when shooting these young and healthy children/youth. He could have chosen any extremism as part of his game. What is important is to get to understand why he became this psychopath. It is easy to see where he got his role models though, That is why I get sick every time I see commercially calculated excessive violence embedded in mainstream entertainment.

    In other words I would not give Breivik credit (or even liability) for fighting for some cause. He is just sick.

    Again, this doesn't mean that the hatred you mentioned shouldn't be resisted.
     
  23. GUWonder
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    I'm not sure if I should take the second sentence above literally or not. Taking the above literally, I've seen the above done in some places -- sometimes for decades -- and the outcome of such state actions are ugly and often end up even more depraved than any individual could be absent being backed by state actors or being in a state agency role.

    When the laws already in place aren't being effectively enforced and when available methods for lawful monitoring and interdiction of criminal activity aren't being used effectively, granting more powers against individuals may foster a loss of focus that invites muddled execution by those granted additional powers.

    He is a very sick individual, of that I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that media (movies, TV shows, books, websites, video games, etc.) played a big part in his thoughts. But he's well capable of recognizing what are legal norms, since he willfully choose to violate legal norms in his fight for a sick cause of his own choosing. He's a terrorist, plain and simple -- and gun control laws or not, he would still be a terrorist. And like terrorists everywhere, there's a cause for which he was fighting and still seems intent upon trying to fight even after being taken into custody. Fortunately, he lost in court today. And may he continue to lose in more than one way.
     
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  24. tsastor
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    That's why I included the word 'positive', like in 'good'/'optimistic'/'constructive'.

    I would add to 'there's a cause for which he was fighting ' a 'thought' like 'there's a cause for which he thought he was fighting '. In fact he has just been living his wet dream and his whatever twisted 'cause' has just suffered. Again, people taking advantage of this nutcase are just as guilty as he is.
     
  25. GUWonder
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    My error then. It's just that which passes for "good/optimistic/constructive" can quite ordinarily or extraordinarily be different in the opinion of different persons; or that which passes for "good/optimistic/constructive" could be largely the same in the opinion of different persons.

    I wouldn't know how to start to dispute that even if I were to wish to dispute that. I do have doubts that the impact from the blast(s) and the rest of the attacks are uniformly unidirectional or even close to symmetrical -- regardless of lost, gained or non-existent "advantage" or attempts at such.
     

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