OneWorld News - QF Partners with EK and drops BA as JBV Partner

Discussion in 'American Airlines | AAdvantage' started by DestinationDavid, Sep 5, 2012.  |  Print Topic

  1. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    Will Horton, an analyst for the Centre for Aviation, is living tweeting the Qantas/Emirates press conference about their alliance and has dropped the following (some very interesting) gems so far:

    • QF/BA ending JBV in favor of QF link-up with EK.
    • QF Euro flights will now hub in DXB and not in SIN.
    • QF will keep service to Asia but will reschedule flights for same-day connections.
    • QF ending FRA service.

    ;lajsdf;lak.JPG
    ;sdafsedf.JPG

    All I can say about some of this is it's a bit of a shake up for the OW alliance, and certainly big changes for QF.
     
  2. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    QF has now issued a press release: LINK.
     
  3. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    A video from QF/EK on the partnership:

     
  4. Wandering Aramean
    Original Member

    Wandering Aramean Gold Member

    Messages:
    28,221
    Likes Received:
    61,767
    Status Points:
    20,020
    This is pretty much HUGE.

    It completely shifts the competition dynamic for basically all of Africa/Europe/Middle East - Australia traffic. What happens with OneWorld will be quite interesting to follow. That said, even if QF drops OW I'd bet that the AA partnership remains as a bilateral deal since the competitive market in the Americas is much different.
     
  5. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    Agreed, the Americas market is a different beast and won't be effected by this as much as Africa/Middle East/Europe. This is a kick in the teeth for BA (who already hates EK and must be seething over this) and to a lesser extent CX.

    I really don't know what this means for OW, but it's certainly not positive. I'm actually a bit shocked that many AA and OW flyers don't seem to be reacting to this shift. It's pin drops here, no thread on the AA FT forum, and only two pages on the OW FT forum.

    Waiting to see where this goes.....
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  6. Wandering Aramean
    Original Member

    Wandering Aramean Gold Member

    Messages:
    28,221
    Likes Received:
    61,767
    Status Points:
    20,020
    The news is trickling out slowly; I'm betting many just don't know what's going on yet.
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  7. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    True. It certainly turned my head when I saw the tweets flowing in from Horton. Ended up staying 20 minutes past building closing time in my office to keep up with it all. :)
     
    Wandering Aramean likes this.
  8. The Saint
    Original Member

    The Saint Silver Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    411
    Status Points:
    520
    Why? The old JSA between BA and QF was of its time. It was born in a period when the so-called Kangaroo route was plied by a host of European carriers and was a very important and busy route (ties of Empire and all that). But the world has changed. The links between the Uk and Australia (whilst still strong) have changed significantly. Australia has much closer business interests in Asia than Europe. So the JSA has run its course. QF is an end of the line carrier. It needs a strategic hub. EK offers that.

    Beyond the historic symbolism of the BA service to Australia, this is not an important market for BA. You only have to look at the consistent downsizing of operations there over the last 20 years. The change is most likely to be felt in SIN. It is effectively going to cease being a OneWorld hub. Like BKK, it will continue to be served by BA and QF, but each carrier will be focusing on the O&D traffic. The new OneWorld hubs in Asia will be KUL when MH join, HKG and TYO. If BA is going to continue to fly to Australia, it will most likely be via KUL or HKG in cooperation with MH or CX. It's a big if. Odds are BA will drop SYD when the JSA with QF ends.

    I'm not sure why you think that CX would be upset in the slightest. CX and QF have never cooperated beyond their OneWorld requirements. The tie up with EK offers little more commercial threat to CX than EK was offering itself last week.

    Obviously, the EK/QF deal is very significant. It brings the old kangaroo route to an end, which has a venerable aviation history, but let's not exaggerate the impact it is likely to have. The most telling indication that it is not a complete game-changer is that QF is being allowed to stay in OneWorld.
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  9. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    You've made some awfully big assumptions about why I made my comment without actually getting any context from me, haven't you? ;)

    It's quite clear the need for the JSA/JBV has shifted since first implemented in 1995, and yes QF's needs have shifted over time as the interests of travelers in Oz began to drift away from Europe. But my comment was about BA, not QF. BA and its European heavy-hitters have been squabbling with EK and other Gulf-based carriers for years now over access to the European market and connecting traffic from and into Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. While BA's interest in Oz may be rather minimal now, the symbolic blow of losing this JBV with QF to EK is likely quite aggravating for Walsh. A major financial blow? Unlikely. A major PR blow as headlines splash up on aviation websites, major newspapers, and the like? Likelier.

    I'm not sure "effectively" is the correct term since QF has flat out stated that SIN will be an end point on their route map and that DXB will serve as their mid-point hub. So SIN's role as QF/BA hub is dead if approval is given starting April 1. I'd agree that when MH comes on board KUL will become a new oneworld hub, but it's a little odd to apply that label to HKG and NRT, both of which have served as major oneworld hubs, must more so than SIN, for quite some time now. Nothing about this QF/BA shift makes their roles as hubs any newer. They might see new action, though, regarding BA's potential decision to drop SYD service. I agree that without the QF partnership the number of seats (particularly premium cabin seats) headed through SIN to SYD is likely not in BA's best interest going forward. It might be feasible to shift a few of those SIN frequencies to NRT and HKG on a schedule that allows people to connect onward to SYD on CX and JL metal. Using HKG and NRT over SIN only adds a handful of miles to the journey.

    To be quite honest, I think your idea of exaggeration is quite exaggerated. ;)

    All I've said is that BA got a public kick in the teeth (it did) and that CX would be impacted to a lesser extent (codeshare already gone, likely to see less QF traffic via OW). No doom and gloom, no predictions of oneworld falling to pieces, no indication that BA and CX faced financial ruin.

    In the end, I think we actually agree on quite a bit about why this happened and what the immediate impact looks like. Perhaps you've just assumed I was thinking a bit more dramatically when I posted the above comment than I actually was.
     
    HaveMilesWillTravel likes this.
  10. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,414
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Status Points:
    2,025
    With all the hassle and expense of connecting through LHR alongside the outrageous YQ charges on BA flights, I'd say this is a good thing. Someone needs to put some competitive pressure on them... and to be honest my future travel plans are much more likely to be eastern Asia and/or the Mideast than European for a while to come.
     
  11. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    Same with me with regards to future travel plans, though I'm not sure this will motivate BA to change the YQ issue.
     
  12. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,414
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Status Points:
    2,025
    Now we can just hope for a new way to redeem miles to get to Africa that doesn't involve BA or some route creativity. Etihad and airberlin have a partnership aside from Etihad/AA. Perhaps we'll see Etihad in OW at some point?
     
  13. The Saint
    Original Member

    The Saint Silver Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    411
    Status Points:
    520
    A kick in the teeth? Very few people care. This is the desperate last throw of the dice of an airline that is a basket case. As this is not in any way a revenue sharing arrangment with EK, it is just kicking the can down the road.

    Evidence please. I know that LH has been lobbying the German goverment to restrict access to German ports by EK, but the UK is pretty much open skies. EK can fly where they want. I am not aware of any "squabbling" between BA and EK (or any other Gulf carriers). EK used to be a BA partner with codeshares on the MAN-DXB route.

    News flash. Airlines don't set their policies by reference to those travelling on redemption tickets. YQ is here to stay. And each year, more airlines adopt that model.
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  14. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    Whether people care or not doesn't change that it's another check in the "Loss" column in the EK vs BA struggle. I think more people care than you are accounting for, but that's rather pointless to debate.

    I completely agree that QF is a mess and this will hardly be the fix they need. I see QF growing smaller in time, not really growing with the EK partnership. That's just pure speculation on my part though.
     
  15. Wandering Aramean
    Original Member

    Wandering Aramean Gold Member

    Messages:
    28,221
    Likes Received:
    61,767
    Status Points:
    20,020
    You sure about that?? :confused:

    http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/sep-2012/5440/global/en
     
  16. The Saint
    Original Member

    The Saint Silver Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    411
    Status Points:
    520
  17. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    It's rather sneaky to go back after you've posted and I've already replied and add more text to make it appear as if I've chosen to ignore your critique, wouldn't you say? :cool:

    For your first point, you've narrowing my comment to just BA when I was making a comment about BA, LH, and AF as a group. LH is more concerned with EK access to their markets while BA has been looking steadily at connecting traffic issues.

    It seems a bit difficult to track down some of the news stories I've read regarding BA's comments on EK and other Gulf carriers since any attempt brings up a massive amount of articles on the QF/EK tie up. I did manage to find this from Abu Dhabi's "The National" English language paper noting comments from BA CEO Williams about the connecting traffic issue I noted: LINK.

    British Airways, however, is not threatened by this strategy, Mr Williams said. "Our market share to the Middle East is about 30 per cent, and up on last year. That reflects the importance of London. We operate 60 flights a week from London to the region, and our customers are mostly premium customers, flying point to point."

    However, he admitted competition from Gulf states' carriers from British regional airports, such as Manchester and Glasgow, was keen as they tried to snap-up market share aimed at transfer passengers for Asia and Australasia.

    There are other articles such as this as well. As stated, EK and the Gulf carriers have targeted LH/AF territory much heavier for now, but BA is fully aware that they're subject to these airlines encroaching on their territory for connecting traffic. I'm sure that once EK and company have conquered the German and French markets they'll be happy to settle with that and just leave the UK, and more specifically the lucrative LON market well enough alone, right? BA is aware of the lion at the gate and is keenly attempting to keep their competitive edge in their market share. EK isn't just another carrier, BA is aware that EK is an airline who could potentially threaten their current profitable operation (minus the IB mess), has made comments as such in interviews, etc.

    I counter your news flash with a reading comprehension flash. "I'm not sure this will motivate BA to change the YQ issue" = "Not going to happen."

    So I suppose I should thank you for the news update where you completely agreed with me? ;):)

    I'll reiterate again, I actually don't think we disagree on very much, and the parts we do disagree on are rather unimportant.
     
    HaveMilesWillTravel likes this.
  18. mundosurfer
    Original Member

    mundosurfer Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes Received:
    1,848
    Status Points:
    1,075
    Etihad should join OW and after having increased their shares in Virgin Australia they could probably persuade them to join as well.
     
  19. The Saint
    Original Member

    The Saint Silver Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    411
    Status Points:
    520
    It might have been had I done so, but I didn't. I posted a series of quotes by editing. It's the only way I know how when taking multiple quotes in a reply.

    I'm looking for evidence of the squabbling between EK and BA. Is there any? What you have posted is evidence of competition between EK and BA, of which there is no doubt. Competition is not the synonym of squabbling. There has been squabbling between LH and EK over access to the German market, but you chose to single out BA. So I ask again, where is the evidence of the squabbling between EK and BA?

    Context is everything in comprehension. The quote of yours to which I was responding was itself a response to Mike Reed's comment

    Your post was expressing agreement with the sentiment that it would be nice if competition put pressure on YQ, albeit expressing doubt that BA would change its policy in this respect. I was expressing the view - taking issue with both you and Mike Reed - that it was naive to think that competition like this would have any effect on YQ at all, which is only remotely relevant to redemption tickets.
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  20. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    It's not. You can simply click the reply button again and it adds the quote under any text you've already created.

    This is extremely semantic and honestly just silly at this point. If you have an issue with my word choice we can discuss diction in private messages.

    You're correct, context is is everything and you're leaving out a bit, aren't you?

    My exact quote is "Same with me with regards to future travel plans, though I'm not sure this will motivate BA to change the YQ issue." As you said, my quote was a reply to Mike Reed who:
    • Said his future travel takes him to the Middle East and Asia, not Europe
    • He wished this would pressure BA to drop YQ
    When viewing my reply against what Mike Reed said, it's clear I said:
    • I also have future travel plans to the Middle East and Asia, not Europe
    • I didn't think this was a situation that would motivate BA to drop award YQ
    There isn't anything in there talking my about my agreement that it would be nice if competition put pressure on BA.

    I have no idea why you feel the need to "correct" me on an issue that I actually agree with you on. Similar to above, you're assuming you know what I'm saying vs simply asking.
     
  21. LETTERBOY
    Original Member

    LETTERBOY Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Status Points:
    1,425
    I can't imagine anything Virgin joining OW.
     
  22. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    You mean Mr. Branson might have a problem with one of the key OW anchors? ;)
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  23. LETTERBOY
    Original Member

    LETTERBOY Gold Member

    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Status Points:
    1,425
    I think it's more than "might." And I think it's more than one. :D
     
    DestinationDavid likes this.
  24. DestinationDavid
    Original Member

    DestinationDavid Milepoint Guide

    Messages:
    6,846
    Likes Received:
    12,715
    Status Points:
    11,770
    True, but everyone has a nemesis. :)
     
    LETTERBOY likes this.
  25. The Saint
    Original Member

    The Saint Silver Member

    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    411
    Status Points:
    520
    Sorry, that's not going to wash. It's not a semantic point, it's a point of substance. You claimed that BA and EK had some history of squabbling. It was a point made in support of your contention that this was being felt by BA to be a "kick in the teeth". Now it appears from what you say that you have no evidence of the alleged squabbling. Now we can see that this was just a little rhetorical flourish, rather than something based on facts.
     

Share This Page