New Korean Air A380 Scrapes The Runway at Narita - July 21st.

Discussion in 'General Discussion | Travel' started by VVanderlust, Jul 22, 2011.  |  Print Topic

  1. VVanderlust

    VVanderlust Silver Member

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    Some background:
    1. Typhoon in the area causing very strong cross-winds
    2. Runway closed for about 20 minutes to see if any debris was left behind.
    3. Airbus calling it "less than minor."
    4. Airplane checked and put back into service with passengers on the return to Seoul.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. jbcarioca
    Original Member

    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    The Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind Component (MDCW) of the A380 is 45 kt, but an Airbus test pilot was quoted as saying he had taken off and landed in 2006 in Ireland with one while with an actual crosswind of 56kts.

    A look at this photo suggests maybe the pilot flying was a trifle too modest with rudder correction. IME almost all aircraft can land above the MDCW, which is not an operating limitation, but a statement of what has been observed, thus "Demonstrated". Sometimes airline manuals do set limitations, but they are very rarely done by manufacturers ("very rarely" means I have not seen one).

    I have myself landed and taken off several times when crosswinds were in excess of the MDCW. Those have all been in situations which had unexpected bad weather or other unusual conditions and I was intimately familiar with the aircraft I was flying.

    All but one of those was during hurricane activity in South Florida. Given a typhoon in the area, the KE flight had similar conditions. A necessity is very, very quick, but not abrupt, control changes due to volatile fluctuations in air pressure and wind speed/direction. Luckily there was no damage caused in this incident, but the pilots will do better with more experience, I am sure.

    As a relevant aside: when a typhoon/hurricane is present the altimeter setting can and does fluctuate wildly. I have seen indicated altitude changes of 200 feet and more while in taxi during such a storm. Normally pilots use the altimeter for primary altitude reference, but in these conditions the radar altimeter is the only reliable source. Because wind speed and direction are also volatile one must carry a bit of extra speed while landing, which also makes crosswind control more sensitive.

    Some of the flying commercial pilots here will have more eloquent descriptions of all this. I once had lots of experience in such conditions, but that was a long time ago. Now I am just a passenger. luckily for my ego, all my ratings are intact, just not the medical exam nor the recurrent training. I do miss it, especially when I see photos like this one.
     
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  3. Gargoyle
    Original Member

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    They seem to be having "less than minor" incidents with the A380's every month.
     
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  4. rwoman
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    rwoman Gold Member

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    That's crazy....it's an awfully big bird to try and land on it's side...:confused:
     
  5. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    HaveMilesWillTravel Gold Member

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    Probably other aircraft, too, but they attract less attention.
     
  6. NYBanker
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    NYBanker Gold Member

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    Exactly!
     
  7. Gargoyle
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    true, but if you set yourself to be the top, you need to prepare for slings and arrows. Some of the A380 "less than minor" accidents (runway incursions, etc.) would indicate they either aren't focusing on the having the best of the best as pilots and ground crew, or perhaps it is simply that the planes are just too big and unwieldy for contemporary airports. Or maybe a lot of industry people underestimated the learning curve for these leviathans. An error in an A380 is much more serious and costly than the same error in a CRJ.
     
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  8. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    HaveMilesWillTravel Gold Member

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    Agreed, but just wait 'till the Dreamliners enter service and get their first dents ;)
     
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  9. Gargoyle
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    don't you know they have magical tube bodies, dents just pop out and heal themselves naturally. :p
    (oh, and the livery is applied via a kindle-like skin, they just program it in and it projects over the body- no paint).

    oh, sorry, that's the 797.
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. LizzyDragon84
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    LizzyDragon84 Gold Member

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    Darn buildings and runways, they just keep popping up in front of the planes.
     
  11. bakedpatato
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    bakedpatato Gold Member

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    This is KE's first A380 and it's pretty much fresh out of Toulouse...to be expected.
    Now AF on the other hand ;):rolleyes:
     
  12. Scottrick
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    Scottrick Gold Member

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    Every time I see one it reminds me of a Ford Excursion, which looks even more absurd than a Hummer
     
  13. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    HaveMilesWillTravel Gold Member

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    What's ETOPS rating of that beast?
     
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  14. MSPeconomist
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    MSPeconomist Gold Member

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    Yes, it's terribly unfair
     
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  15. MSPeconomist
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    MSPeconomist Gold Member

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    Do you routinely get into accidents in a new car? I think not.
     
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  16. NYBanker
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    NYBanker Gold Member

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    Based on a small set (my neighbors who have moved from a 3-series BMW to a GMC Yukon XL), the "accident within the first month" rate can alarmingly high when you consider the before and after vehicle types.

    Basically, as parents go from one kid to two (or more) (3.5 kids, plus the compulsory dog, is the average where I live), they find they need to have more room and invariably go big. The BMW stops on a dime, which is pretty easy to get used to. These beastly Yukons stop on, well, typically the rear end of a small BMW! More often than not, these parents do learn how to handle the Yukons, but it's often not without some initial scars.

    This is perhaps analogous to a a320 pilot moving up to an a380?
     
  17. NYBanker
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    NYBanker Gold Member

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    Forget about etops, imagine the thrust of that beastly engine?
     
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  18. bakedpatato
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    bakedpatato Gold Member

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    0 cause once the engine stops spinning the pax swim ;)
    Exactly.
     
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  19. rwoman
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    rwoman Gold Member

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    I'd be pretty peeved if I spent THAT much money and the driver, er pilot, was already trashing the thing.:p

    :)robin
     
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  20. bakedpatato
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    bakedpatato Gold Member

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    You should see my car ;)
     
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  21. jbcarioca
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    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    This time I agree with them. It seems quite likely that the pilot in command used too little crosswind correction, but taht there actually was no damage because there was no actual ground strike. I suspect taht because the AC was almost immediately flown again.
     
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  22. jbcarioca
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    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    How about the Audi 5000? How about the Prius? Those stories ended out being 100% driver error, just as almost all aircraft accidents are pilot error. We now expect car manufacturers and airplane manufacturers to design to minimize operator errors. I agree with the goal.

    I used to fly a Learjet 35, that being a design that was most seriously subject to operator error. I also used to drive a Chevrolet Corvair, also seriously subject to user error. I have a few dozen more examples on both cars and aircraft. The question really is: Should manufacturers bear responsibility for operator error?

    Back in the mid-1960's the system of type ratings came about because when the original Learjet 23 was introduced a huge percentage of the fleet crashed in the first year. The airplane was unforgiving. Training was the culprit. The same issues affected the early Boeing 727's, the DC-10 and, more so, the MD-11, as well as the Airbus A300. All of those were safe airplanes. All of them demanded more than typical skills.

    So, should manufacturers bear responsibility for pilot inadequacy? That is a good question to decide. I can easily argue both sides. As a pilot I say "no". The odd ones are usually more fun and challenging to fly. The most boring ones are the safest. As a passenger I tend towards "yes" partly because pilots are not usually very skillful or attentive, and we should not expect them to be anything more than bus drivers. There are many excellent ones, but many are not. That is true in every field. So, I argue for designing to the lowest common denominator.
     
  23. Jimgotkp
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    Jimgotkp Gold Member

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    Can the A380 do barrel rolls? :eek:
     
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  24. jbcarioca
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    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    It probably could were it to be lightly loaded and had a couple really young, bold pilots on board. None of the old pilots would be bold enough to do it.

    Years ago people used to do aileron rolls in Learjets 23-25 series. The thing was originally designed to be a fighter but was adapted to become one of the early business jets, so it was capable, but not certified for that. The FAA examiner who gave me my Learjet type rating checkride told me all Learjet pilots should do that at least once. I declined anyway, being a cautious type. Several airliners have been known to have done aileron rolls, but some of them did not survive the experience. I am sure there is some more information to be found on the internet somewhere.
     
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  25. Gargoyle
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    It's certainly big enough to roll a few barrels down the aisle, which could make for a great flight.
    .
    [​IMG]
     

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