C-series disaster.

Discussion in 'Air Canada | Aeroplan' started by why fly, Jun 20, 2011.  |  Print Topic

  1. Wow Airbus tosses a new engine on an old A320 and hopes to get 500 orders Bombardier has just been told by Qatar its NOT going to buy the C-series and now has orders for 114 planes..

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ries-deal-loses-second-as-qatar-retreats.html

    The order disclosed today is for 10 CS100 planes worth $616 at list prices, with options for six more, Bombardier said in a statement. Qatar’s al Baker said his airline put off a decision on the model “for a while until we’ve sorted all the airplanes we have in the pipeline”
    The CSeries jet is designed to compete with Boeing Co. (BA)’s 737 and the Airbus A320 family in the market for narrow-body planes with 100 to 149 seats.
    Bombardier earlier this month announced the first orders for the model in more than a year, with 10 contracts from Sweden’s Braathens Leading Ltd. and three from another unidentified airline. Today’s deal takes the firm-order total to 113 planes and the number of customers to six, the company said.
    Airbus expects to have more than 500 orders for the 320neo by the end of the Paris show, reaching the milestone about seven months after deciding to re-engine the jet.
     
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  2. The Lev
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    The Lev Silver Member

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    The 320neo and C-Series will serve different missions. Qatar hasn't said it is "not" gonig to buy the plane - it said "not now".

    I suspect over time the C-Series will be anything but a "disaster".
     
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  3. I think its a graceful backdown..?
    Qatar Air has meanwhile “deferred the decision” to buy the Bombardier plane and will “hopefully” announce a commitment for the neo before the end of the Paris event, Chief Executive Officer Akbar al Baker said following a press briefing today

    Well it will be a "disaster" for the Canadian taxpayer
     
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  4. briantoronto
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    briantoronto Gold Member

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    Akbar Al Baker is playing his game. He is unhappy for some reason with P&W so is shunning the C series.

    This is the guy who cancelled an order for 777s *after* Boeing released the PR, remember.
     
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  5. janyyc
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    janyyc Silver Member

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    Yeah, the C-series hasn't caught on. But this type of thread belongs on Airliners.net, n'est-ce pas?
     
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  6. well looks like P&W has its engine ready so what engine did Qatar order.

    More than a dozen so-called working teams from Pratt & Whitney, Airbus and various suppliers continue their evaluation of the integration challenge the companies face as orders mount for geared turbofan-powered versions of the Airbus A320neo airliner, with the airframer looking to advance entry into service by six months, to October 2015.
    Scheduled to enter detailed design by the end of the year, Pratt & Whitney has not had to change its engine test schedules as a result of the Airbus decision. However, according to Pratt & Whitney new generation product family vice president Bob Saia, “It puts a little challenge on us because we’ve got to work faster, but in terms of the overall integration and definition the pre-work supports it.” Schedules call for the first PW1100G–the variant designed to power the Neo–to start testing late next year.
    Saia told AIN that the biggest integration chore centers on the changes associated with mounting the new engine’s nacelles to the A320’s wings. If fact, new pylons and a nacelle system will account for perhaps the A320neo’s only major new hardware.
     
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  7. briantoronto
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    briantoronto Gold Member

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    Qatar has not ordered any A320NEOs. And if he does, it does not mean the Cseries will not be ordered.

    Anyone who follows this industry will know that Qatar, and Al Baker specifically, is know for flip flopping publicly to get a better deal.

    If / when Al Baker orders A320NEOs, and put CFM LEAP-X engines under the wings, it will be a sign that P&W is unwilling to make enough concessions at the moment, that is all.
     
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  8. This game is not like buying cheap Walmart imports from slave labor factories in China. Its a highly competitive industry and the Qatari's know how to play it well. They, in effect look for ways host governments of the manufacturers might subsidize their purchase through different "unrelated" initiatives that favor Qatar. And that game is played well above your IQ levels
     
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  9. briantoronto
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    briantoronto Gold Member

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    KE just did a LOI for up to 30 more frames. An LOI isn't an order, so it will be interesting to see when/if this converts.
     
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  10. Canadi>n
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    Canadi>n Gold Member

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    Actually about half of the C series will be built in China. That's part of Bombardier's strategy, making it the favoured buy for China's airlines. However, the big problem with manufacturing in/with China is theft of intellectual property and we've already seen the Chinese entry which looks exactly like the C700 series!

    As for Qatar, remember these guys like to play politics and we're not in the good graces with the UAE over the Emirates issue, as well as our policy on Israel. Taking the high road often means losing out on contracts with dictators by any other name.
     
  11. garyst16
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    garyst16 Silver Member

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    Really? "well above your IQ levels"? Well, Terry, it is wonderful that MP at least has you to explain this situation to the less fortunuate on this board. We thank you for sharing your superior level of intelligence with the rest of us on MP.
     
    antirealist and why fly like this.
  12. The post was not a response to anything you posted was it?
    But thank you for the compliment:rolleyes:
     
  13. the 320 Neo is selling..rather quickly....

    Airbus' first big order Monday was from GE Capital Aviation Services, for 60 A320neo jets, a version of the workhorse jet revamped to be more fuel efficient.
    Airbus has booked 390 orders and commitments for the A320neo since its commercial launch last December — even though it won't come into service until 2015 — from airlines squeezed by higher fuel prices.
    Boeing hasn't yet chosen how it will respond, but top marketing executive Randy Tinseth said it would decide in the coming months whether to upgrade its existing 737 model or design a whole new plane, which wouldn't be in the air until the end of the decade.
     
  14. Yes Bombardier will use factories in China to make parts for the plane.:p
     
  15. slow-selling C Series jet a much-needed boost and its first Asian customer.
    The order, announced at the Paris Air Show on Tuesday, is worth about $660-million (U.S.) at list prices, though deep discounts are routine, especially for any new airplane’s first round of customers. “Korean Air is a well-recognized airline, thereby giving more legitimacy to the C Series program,” National Bank Financial said in a note.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/c-series-wins-its-first-asian-customer/article2068812/
     
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  16. AC_Flyer

    AC_Flyer Silver Member

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    Currently BBD has 123 firm (51 CS100 and 72 CS300) + 129 Options. LH did order 30 aircraft for LX and with KE's 10, they have two 'well-recognized airlines ordering these birds'

    It is interesting how the A32x NEO has done so far this year.....
     
  17. tomh009
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    tomh009 Gold Member

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    At this point the A320 NEO is taking business away from Boeing if anyone: not one of the 650 or so net new orders this year has been for an A319 NEO (which would compete with the C-series).

    A tough choice for Boeing now as re-engining the 737 is much more difficult.
     
  18. briantoronto
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    Interestingly, Republic has an MOU for 319neos—they also have the C300 on order.
     
  19. Canadi>n
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    Canadi>n Gold Member

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    It's really no surprise that the Airbus/neos are doing so well. After all, the first of the A320s went into service in the mid-1980s so are approaching 30-years+ of flying by the time the neos are expected to fly. It would be natural for operators of narrow body Airbuses to replace their older planes with the later variants since training will be minimal as will maintenance facilities upgrading. The C series is a brand new aircraft and relies on growth in the regional market to move from 70-100 seat aircraft to 100-130 seat planes. This is a big jump for Bombardier's current regional customers and there are various reasons for them to be skittish. It also requires a breakthrough with carriers not already flying its CRJs since they'd have to upgrade maintenance and training to introduce a whole new airplane series into their fleets. This is not the case with those same airlines who are now operating Airbus and Boeing planes. It is quite likely Boeing 737 operators will be opting for a 737neo when Boeing decides to proceed with it. However, for the moment the 737 has been upgraded more often than the A320 series, so Boeing operators have already replaced their earliest 200s and 300s with more modern 700, 800 and 900 variants. The current narrow bodies Airbuses are pretty long in the tooth because Airbus has been too focused on the A380 problems...and putting priority in catching up to Boeing in the B787 realm with its A350.
     
  20. canucklehead
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    canucklehead Gold Member

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    Some mixed signals in this report on the C-series. While it has not chalked up many sales, the plane has generated some buzz. Still it was the A320neo show this week!
     
  21. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    HaveMilesWillTravel Gold Member

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    From the WSJ article (Google the headline to find the full article):

    "Bombardier has said that it is managing its order book to ensure its customers are spread throughout the world in order to enhance the plane's financial value."

    Really? So they are able to pick and choose which customers they accept? Or what does this mean?


     
  22. janyyc
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    janyyc Silver Member

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    It's press talk for 'these are the orders we have received'. :)
     
  23. AC_Flyer

    AC_Flyer Silver Member

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    Republic signed the MOU for Frontier. 40 A319NEOs and 40 A320NEO. think the C300 is for Republic...
     
  24. The Lev
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    The Lev Silver Member

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    The A320neo is taking business away from the A320. Most (but not all) buyers are purchasing these aircraft to augment or replace an existing fleet of A320's.

    IMHO a very easy choice for Boeing - design a new aircraft from scratch or cede the narrowbody market to Airbus, Bombardier, Comac...

    What they need to consider is when they will have the available engineering resources and whether not there is very new technology out there that will make it worth their while to wait before introducing their bird. I expect Boeing is quietly shopping a completely new narrow body 787-style aircraft to its key customers that will leapfrog the A320 neo.
     
  25. HaveMilesWillTravel
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    They could just buy Bombardier and the C Series :)
     

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