An open letter to redtailshark

Discussion in 'Delta Air Lines | SkyMiles' started by Handleman20, Jan 14, 2012.  |  Print Topic

  1. Handleman20

    Handleman20 Silver Member

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    This line pops up a lot in your posts. It's curious to me what you are going for. Who on here exactly would you consider an "apologist"? I don't normally see people on here going "No you evil redtailshark, you are wrong and Delta is the bestest airline in the wooooooorld and uber-leet!" and de-friending you... wait, that's Facebook. Most everyone is here to share tips, try to find good deals, and generally be friendly and happy. If there are problems then people cooperatively try to find solutions.

    I cannot for the life of me figure out what your ultimate goal is on this particular forum. Is it to have every person who says the word "Delta" then immediately spit in disgust like the Iron Sheik used to do ("EEEEE-RAHN NUMBAH ONE! DELTA HAWK PATOOH!")? Is it to have endless posts from people going "Yes you... redtailshark... are the SMARTEST FLYER IN THE WORLD!"? Is it to wave your shark about and show everyone how big it is? I'm unsure.

    In my opinion, it seems like your goal is just to try to show people how dumb you think they are if they don't share your views. I'm not sure though. Could you elaborate your goals? I want to get behind you and talk about how you are *best in class* and generally continue being amused (your posts provide me endless amusement normally, not unlike the rabid Tea Party fan I talk to occasionally), but not if your only goal is to spout vitriol constantly about how the good ole days of Northwest were so awesome and all things DL-related are bad. I mean, I worked for Northwest and loved it but that was a long time ago and I've moved on. Things change; you either adapt and overcome like Gunny Highway or you sit on the porch yelling at everyone to get off your lawn like Walt Kowalski.

    I'll be interested to know. If nothing else, it will make for a good forum post.
     
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  2. commander flatus

    commander flatus Active Member

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    feed not the trolls
     
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  3. Handleman20

    Handleman20 Silver Member

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    That avatar is PERFECT for that comment. "Feeding trolls is NOT permitted on any milepoint forum..."
     
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  4. MalcoveMagnesia
    Original Member

    MalcoveMagnesia Silver Member

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    actually, that brings up a fantabulous question that I meant to ask earlier -- is there a setting here on MilePoint where one can ignore a particular user?
     
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  5. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    I don't know....but I know them when I see them. Someone who would believe and reiterate the excuse "we're working on it" you know, what Jeff said about the DL award booking tool in 2008, well, in light of the evidence of awful performance since then, in so many ways, it would be impossible objectively to agree.

    Heyy..don't sweat it...I don't know your "ultimate goal" either. It's a forum.

    I contest your opinion. I am sure DL flyers are intelligent people. And the evidence is clear, that I have repeatedly acknowledged that DL SM managers are intelligent people with a clear plan. They have developed good stratagems. It is however very unfortunate that their plan is to fleece SM members for the maximum number of SM per redemption and in general not to deliver usability that would allow customers to receive the published benefits.

    The only people who could use more consideration are those who want censorship. Or those who don't recognize that this is what DL are doing.

    Think about it...I don't disrespect the intelligence and competence of the management by thinking they can't fix the problems and deliver service comparable to CO.COM. I am sure this could be done in short order if management willed it so. So, there's only one conclusion. I think it would be unintelligent to make the alternative case...that DL.COM doesn't work because DL SM is managed by bumbling fools who can't get anything right no matter how long they have.

    I am not best in class. Only DL SM is *best in class.* Bear in mind, it's not my phrase. Jeff and the DL corporate machine said so. Repeatedly. If this phrase is now perceived as an embarrassment that they would like to sweep into the trashcan of history, then they only have themselves to blame. I find it very amusing because the contradiction, the chasm, between what they claim and what they deliver, it's like the Grand Canyon.

    I haven't said much about NW here. They're not an option for flyers today. UA and AA are. But since you mention the redtail, yes, they were miles better and many people know it. Although the DL board mods don't like that line, I've seen a number of people state so on FT.

    Yes, I understand that there is change. I don't know what your position with NW was but I've heard plenty from those who are dealing with customers at the Medallion level about how things have changed. How *best in class* it is to have to push a call to FIVE supes to get a reissue, which under NW Plat regs, would have been handled by the same CSR, in-house, immediately. No wonder service is so badly degraded from the perspective of former NW elites.

    UA 1K service is comparable so far to NW PE and it's miles better than CO PE service. So, there are good CS systems for high-level elites. Just not at DL. That's a very objective comparison.

    Exactly.
     
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  6. Scottrick
    Original Member

    Scottrick Gold Member

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    It's like putting blood in the water. The redtailshark will find it!
     
  7. jbcarioca
    Original Member

    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    Lessee, DL taken over by BA, so redtailshark will say what? I suppose we must have one eternally angry soul.
     
  8. Bay Pisco Shark
    Original Member

    Bay Pisco Shark Gold Member

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    Some sharks spend their time in a much more useful fashion, drinking pisco.
     
  9. Jaimito Cartero
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    Jaimito Cartero Silver Member

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    Well some people feel that DL can do no wrong. He's the equalizing force. :)
     
  10. Canarsie
    Original Member

    Canarsie Gold Member

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    Please do not speak for me, as I have never stated that.
     
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  11. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    Technically, perhaps not to me. But let's not be disingenuous. You were cc:d on the censoring notes as one of the DL mods. Your handle appeared in the cc: list on the following note. So you had some part in the discussions, and certainly you had knowledge of them. I don't know exactly what you said during them, however, I don't know why we would maintain a conspiracy of silence on these matters. I find that conspiracies of silence are a major contribution to the problems we face.

    -----------------

    Dear RTS,
    Thank you for quoting Voltaire.

    Please allow me to quote FT's TOS:
    Repeated Posting of Disruptive Posts guideline
    Posters who repeatedly post items that create disruption within forums will be subject to disciplinary action.


    You have repeatedly and in a premeditated fashion attempted to steer many threads that have nothing to do with the Skymiles into OT discussions on the program. That sir is disruptive and will not be tolerated. Today you also posted on threads that were discussing Skymiles (there are plenty of them) and that is totally permissible and I have absolutely no issue with any of those posts.
    Skymiles gets even worse
    How bad is Delta, really?
    Delta=Con Artists

    In addition, I resent your implication that I or any other moderator on this forum is attempting to censor you as stated in your reply.

    "I appreciate that some DL mods don't like DL being criticized and would like to silence what DL and certain others might regard as "dissent." I'm not sure why, because to my knowledge the DL forum mods don't work for DL and in any case it's not in the charter of FT to provide a corporate platform for an airline."


    In fact, if you knew your FT history I was one of the leaders of the SaveSkyMiles movement several years ago so your insinuation directed at me could not be further from the truth. Instead of disrupting threads on the board in the manner you have, you should start an online movement like the SSM group did which ultimately resulted in DL rescinding their draconian cutbacks in the benefits of the Skymiles program and also giving Rob Borden the manager of Skymiles at that time the boot.

    Incidentally there is always a "Court of Appeals" on FT and as you already know it is Randy Petersen. You also have a history of disrupting other forums which resulted in the BA forum moderators issuing you a 6 month forum mask so we both know this is not the first time the moderators on FT have had an issue with your posting pattern. In closing, this is not about censorship as you have indicated as a defense. It is about respecting your fellow board members, allowing them to discuss other topics besides the Skymiles program and also abiding by FT's TOS.
    Sincerely yours,
    RSSrsvp - Moderator DL board

    ----

    I respect RSSrsvps role in SSM. But not the cloaking of censorship in this guise of "respecting board members" etc.

    To those points, I said, and say now... too bad. What nonsense, this "Court of Appeal." Czarist censorship validation, as indeed it proved. Not that I contacted such Appeal. Why validate the system of speech control?

    The use of the phrase "best in class" was specifically identified as disruptive speech on that forum, as you will well recall. This is of course another of the reasons to use it whenever possible.

    And then... the idea that I was "allowing" anyone to discuss anything on this board, when I had no control over what others posted, was absurd. Even more so that "other topics besides the SM program" needed to be discussed! This was a laughable direct contradiction to the published mission of the forum..... which was to discuss the SM program.

    Be real. It's all about censorship and we all know it. How apposite, that the DL SM program discussions were being moderated in a *best in class* way. How discomfiting for the censorious, to have this addressed.

    As for MP, let me tell you that my discussions with board mod here have been different, although I have little doubt the same outcome could result. However, you can be sure that even that censorship won't result in the disappearance of these views from public domain :)

    All the mods would be better served by facilitating free expression and seeing how the community handles the results.

    I have always wondered what would prompt someone to step forward to serve as a board moderator, knowing well that at some stage they will be called on to censor certain views/people. I was asked to do this on a professional forum once and said to heck with it.
     
  12. MalcoveMagnesia
    Original Member

    MalcoveMagnesia Silver Member

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    Wow, if I ever need a speechwriter that can help me pad out an hour's presentation I know exactly who to call upon. Except I'd probably ask him to shave and delouse his hair.

    p.s. classy move quoting a FT mod's private message w/o permission
    p.p.s. Randy is completely disconnected from FT now, yes?
     
  13. canucklehead
    Original Member

    canucklehead Gold Member

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    RTS,

    Is this from more than a year ago? and from Flyertalk, no less? If so, why rehash it on Milepoint? Is it to teach the unwashed masses the virtue of free speech and to guard it no matter how disruptive you think it is?

    While I am not opposed to you posting, I think there must be a better way forward. If your posts elicit such a visceral response, perhaps its not that those who oppose you are apologists, but that those who oppose you are opposed to the way you deliver your message.

    Milepoint is young, and the controversies small, but what I have learned from this online community is that we are trying to build a place where people can come for help and to help each other. There needs to be a better way forward if one wishes to continue a dialogue and part of that is to use language that allows for such conversation, not use of inflammatory or derogatory words. The essence is to respect the community and its contributors.

    When I was younger, I loved having an aquarium and my must pets in all my tanks were plecos and red tailed sharks because they served an important role in the ecosystem, but I learned that the latter animal often came in two varieties -- one that would coexist with all the others in the tank and ones that would chase the other fish away fiercely guarding its territory for no apparent reason. Lets hope you find a way to discuss topics and not be ostracized.
     
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  14. dhammer53
    Original Member

    dhammer53 Gold Member

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    I popped in to this thread because it was 'trending'. Shameful.

    When Milepoint opened for business last year, it was touted as a friendly place to escape to in the online travel world. Looks like the message, if delivered, wasn't read. :(
     
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  15. yaychemistry

    yaychemistry Silver Member

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    The unstoppable force vs the immovable object...
     
  16. Handleman20

    Handleman20 Silver Member

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    In retrospect, I probably should have messaged this to the redtailed one directly. My bad.
     
  17. MalcoveMagnesia
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    MalcoveMagnesia Silver Member

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    @Handleman20

    RTS won't listen. He's on a mission from God.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. jbcarioca
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    jbcarioca Gold Member

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    Luckily almost all of us do see it that way. Equally, while being still open and free, many of us are making it clear to RTS, specifically that being boorish and rude are not welcome here among us. I'm not really sorry it has made trending topics, because our desire for a polite but open environment is growing even more clear. Actually, I pity such posters because they clearly cannot handle their own issues very well. Perpetual colic is not good for anyone. Maybe he needs Valium.
     
  19. riverchica
    Original Member

    riverchica Silver Member

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    Hear, hear!
     
  20. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    I'm not the one saying that ;) You are.

    As for listening, I'm reading this and replying.

    Let's not confuse listening and reading with agreeing with....your opinion.

    I think the situation where people aren't listening can only truly arise if one can't speak...because then, nothing can be heard. Censorship is what prevents listening, not an open exchange accompanied by disagreement.
     
  21. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    jbc, what is boorish and rude? As a multi-national person you of all ought to know that different behaviors are interpreted very differently between cultures. The Dutch and Japanese have very different views on the need for open speech during biz negotiations for example. What's rude to the Dutch is polite to the Japanese and vice versa.

    Just because you class my comments as rude doesn't mean everyone agrees with you. Still less, that they will join any censorious impulse you feel. I mean, I expect that from BA and DL apologists, of course, and that behavior is documented. DL fans, BA fans, not necessarily.

    Maybe I don't need valium....maybe it's you that needs some Es. :p

    And be cautious with the desire for a "polite but open" environment. As soon as one condition gets set for how that gets done, you're on the BA board path over there. A Brave New World indeed. Implosion follows.
     
  22. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    But... friendly to what? Open exchange of views? No online forum is open and all-friendly. People disagree. They speak up. It's life. There are thresholds, of course...I don't agree with, or practice, gratuitous rudeness to employees just doing their jobs BA, DL or whomever. Or other pax. But the idea that an expression of view on an internet board can render a place "unfriendly," well....and to whom, perhaps?

    If it's about newbs, then let the newbs read the dialog for themselves. And make their own minds up about what kind of place they find.
     
  23. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    A serious question. Why do mods expect their decisions to remain private forever? Where's the NDA for such?

    It strikes me as so ironic that those who exercise censorship privilige on a specific board - which, they can, by T&C of that board - expect their censorious adjudications to be respected outside of that board after silencing the member in that location.

    We aren't Ivan Denisovich.

    A lot of stuff gets published after censorship that is quite defamatory to the censored individual - the mods choose
    not to address this, because they don't have to. This certainly is a "classy" move.

    So too is the "louse" commentary. I haven't said anything personally negative towards you. That comment exhibits a hypocrisy about this "classiness" that's quite typical in the censorious strata. Why would you expect a free pass from your own philosophy on conducting yourself with "classiness"? I think the contradiction is evident.

    It's fine you want me to delouse my hair, but your position would be stronger if you didn't preach about "classiness" on internet boards while you're doing so.

    Anyway, the idea that this kind of thing can get a permanent free pass outside of that particular location, well, no.

    Wikileaks performs a necessary function. Despite the sanctimonius bleatings, look where the media went to first for their weeks' stories.....and who then clicked on the headlines and bought the papers and switched on the cable channels to consume this news. Hmmmm....I did...you too?

    I can quote Randy's message to me, which is condescending and worse in tone than the BA board mods. Maybe he's disconnected from FT now but he wasn't about 18 months ago.

    An NDA of the type required by the censorious is completely unworkable but I'm sure some board mod will try it.
     
  24. Canarsie
    Original Member

    Canarsie Gold Member

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    All I posted was the following:
     
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  25. redtailshark

    redtailshark Silver Member

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    I'm not convinced about that, and I have reason not to be convinced of that because of earlier evidence. The entire lack of transparency about who can say what, and who gets censored, whether on FT or elsewhere, furthers suspicions.

    I much prefer this situation, where we can speak openly without people wondering what went on behind the scenes.

    I want to get back to Handleman's original question, the reason for starting the thread. As directly as possible.

    I reiterate: my purpose is to have an open discussion/airing of views about the DL SM program - and other related matters like DL hard product/corporate ideology that drives the delivery.

    Ideally, without being browbeaten by censorious mods who are in cahoots with apologists or airline management, or without being part of interest groups that seek special privilige from the program.
     
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